Comments on: The problem with Gentoo http://thinkmoult.com/2009/10/10/the-problem-with-gentoo/ Seriously who ever reads this description. Tue, 08 May 2012 05:44:44 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Dion Moult http://thinkmoult.com/2009/10/10/the-problem-with-gentoo/comment-page-1/#comment-1179 Dion Moult Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:03:25 +0000 http://thinkmoult.com/2009/10/10/the-problem-with-gentoo/#comment-1179 I agree with your perspective fully - I just think that offering such support, for example for hardware only should be an option people can choose as part of this "pre-built" frame. That's the point I was making with #1. #2 is mainly looking for an official and centralised resource that is regularly maintained - I realise Gentoo-Wiki has suffered a huge loss, but I also see that some howtos are directly on Gentoo's page whereas some on the Wiki, some on the forums and of course some on blog posts. I hope Gentoo-wiki is built up again to become what it was - but perhaps maintenance could be improved? What I've always thought would be the solution is that a quality team be put together and pinged every time a page got a month old without any updates. Then the team could quickly check to see if it was still relevant and up to date, make necessary changes, and so on. #3 I am starting to doubt my own words now :D I agree with your perspective fully – I just think that offering such support, for example for hardware only should be an option people can choose as part of this “pre-built” frame. That’s the point I was making with #1.

#2 is mainly looking for an official and centralised resource that is regularly maintained – I realise Gentoo-Wiki has suffered a huge loss, but I also see that some howtos are directly on Gentoo’s page whereas some on the Wiki, some on the forums and of course some on blog posts. I hope Gentoo-wiki is built up again to become what it was – but perhaps maintenance could be improved? What I’ve always thought would be the solution is that a quality team be put together and pinged every time a page got a month old without any updates. Then the team could quickly check to see if it was still relevant and up to date, make necessary changes, and so on.

#3 I am starting to doubt my own words now :D

]]> By: Jacob Godserv http://thinkmoult.com/2009/10/10/the-problem-with-gentoo/comment-page-1/#comment-1178 Jacob Godserv Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:49:06 +0000 http://thinkmoult.com/2009/10/10/the-problem-with-gentoo/#comment-1178 If you want to get really specific, Gentoo is not a distribution. It's a "meta-distribution". Gentoo is just a big toolbox, and it's up to you to build something with it. They might even give you a pre-built frame, but you still need to fill it out with your own essential services and software. It's up to you to make it work. If it doesn't work, then you can't turn around and blame Gentoo unless it's something to do with a tool in Gentoo's toolbox (portage, openrc, and so on). This is why Gentoo is so awesome in terms of contributing back to the community: we, for the most part, skip that whole extra layer of bureaucracy that Ubuntu Linux and others have and communicate directly with developers about bug-fixes and other things we want fixed, because all the code comes directly from the developers themselves! If you want to get really specific, Gentoo is not a distribution. It’s a “meta-distribution”.

Gentoo is just a big toolbox, and it’s up to you to build something with it. They might even give you a pre-built frame, but you still need to fill it out with your own essential services and software.

It’s up to you to make it work. If it doesn’t work, then you can’t turn around and blame Gentoo unless it’s something to do with a tool in Gentoo’s toolbox (portage, openrc, and so on).

This is why Gentoo is so awesome in terms of contributing back to the community: we, for the most part, skip that whole extra layer of bureaucracy that Ubuntu Linux and others have and communicate directly with developers about bug-fixes and other things we want fixed, because all the code comes directly from the developers themselves!

]]> By: Dion Moult http://thinkmoult.com/2009/10/10/the-problem-with-gentoo/comment-page-1/#comment-1144 Dion Moult Wed, 21 Oct 2009 04:43:30 +0000 http://thinkmoult.com/2009/10/10/the-problem-with-gentoo/#comment-1144 Well, I've tried using tinderbox as my binhost and even though it still has far to go (many missing packages, and I would've expected that it use more useflags) I think it has a lot of potential. You are right, portage can also make a great binary package manager! Looking at the Gentoo philosophy (http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/philosophy.xml) I still think #1 is justified - give users flexibility, choice and freedom yes, but if their choice is to get things working asap, let it be. Well, I’ve tried using tinderbox as my binhost and even though it still has far to go (many missing packages, and I would’ve expected that it use more useflags) I think it has a lot of potential. You are right, portage can also make a great binary package manager!

Looking at the Gentoo philosophy (http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/philosophy.xml) I still think #1 is justified – give users flexibility, choice and freedom yes, but if their choice is to get things working asap, let it be.

]]> By: Jonathan Dahan http://thinkmoult.com/2009/10/10/the-problem-with-gentoo/comment-page-1/#comment-1098 Jonathan Dahan Wed, 14 Oct 2009 22:36:14 +0000 http://thinkmoult.com/2009/10/10/the-problem-with-gentoo/#comment-1098 If there is official binary package support and decent enough sets, an out of the box solution is achievable, which would address problem #1. I think this is what Sabayon tried to do, and if popularity has any validity, then you should probably try it out, because a lot of people like it. Personally I do not like how lxnay acts (or thinks), but it does address #1, the long compile times, and a bit of #3. As far as documentation goes, metadata such as 'UPSTREAM_{CHANGELOG,DOCUMENTATION}' as seen in exheres is incredibly useful and easy to add. If there is official binary package support and decent enough sets, an out of the box solution is achievable, which would address problem #1. I think this is what Sabayon tried to do, and if popularity has any validity, then you should probably try it out, because a lot of people like it. Personally I do not like how lxnay acts (or thinks), but it does address #1, the long compile times, and a bit of #3. As far as documentation goes, metadata such as ‘UPSTREAM_{CHANGELOG,DOCUMENTATION}’ as seen in exheres is incredibly useful and easy to add.

]]> By: Dion Moult http://thinkmoult.com/2009/10/10/the-problem-with-gentoo/comment-page-1/#comment-1091 Dion Moult Tue, 13 Oct 2009 21:04:45 +0000 http://thinkmoult.com/2009/10/10/the-problem-with-gentoo/#comment-1091 awesome! I'll check it out when I get back awesome! I’ll check it out when I get back

]]> By: Jeremy Olexa http://thinkmoult.com/2009/10/10/the-problem-with-gentoo/comment-page-1/#comment-1088 Jeremy Olexa Tue, 13 Oct 2009 18:19:47 +0000 http://thinkmoult.com/2009/10/10/the-problem-with-gentoo/#comment-1088 Dion, In reply to your comment about binary packages. (Comment #7 including the pingback). You apparently haven't seen all the binpkgs that are provided here: http://tinderbox.dev.gentoo.org/default-linux/ portage is a great binary package manager too. One of my systems can only install binary packages that I build for it on a faster computer. I could just as easily set my PORTAGE_BINHOST on that computer to use tinderbox.dev.g.o ;) Dion,
In reply to your comment about binary packages. (Comment #7 including the pingback). You apparently haven’t seen all the binpkgs that are provided here: http://tinderbox.dev.gentoo.org/default-linux/ portage is a great binary package manager too. One of my systems can only install binary packages that I build for it on a faster computer. I could just as easily set my PORTAGE_BINHOST on that computer to use tinderbox.dev.g.o ;)

]]> By: Dion Moult http://thinkmoult.com/2009/10/10/the-problem-with-gentoo/comment-page-1/#comment-1076 Dion Moult Mon, 12 Oct 2009 23:07:11 +0000 http://thinkmoult.com/2009/10/10/the-problem-with-gentoo/#comment-1076 it's quite interesting you see gentoo as simply an easier linux from scratch. I have not been around gentoo for as long as most of the community and if presented like that, I definitely see your point. however when I first discovered gentoo that was not how I perceived it. I agree on graphics and sound but what about internet, wifi, power management and webcams? perhaps asking gentoo to try and appeal to both these markets is simply out of gentoos agenda, but if it is, I think it should be considered. out of curiousity, what are sabayon's aims? it’s quite interesting you see gentoo as simply an easier linux from scratch. I have not been around gentoo for as long as most of the community and if presented like that, I definitely see your point. however when I first discovered gentoo that was not how I perceived it.

I agree on graphics and sound but what about internet, wifi, power management and webcams?

perhaps asking gentoo to try and appeal to both these markets is simply out of gentoos agenda, but if it is, I think it should be considered.

out of curiousity, what are sabayon’s aims?

]]> By: George P. Burdell http://thinkmoult.com/2009/10/10/the-problem-with-gentoo/comment-page-1/#comment-1074 George P. Burdell Mon, 12 Oct 2009 20:11:44 +0000 http://thinkmoult.com/2009/10/10/the-problem-with-gentoo/#comment-1074 #1) Hardware Here is the problem, with Gentoo, you decide what hardware subsystems you want to use. Sound is a perfect example. Do you want OSS or ALSA? Gentoo should not and can not make this decision for you, but without this decision being made, you will not have sound support. Same thing goes for graphics. Do you want X with DRM drivers, binary drivers, or framebuffer drivers? Again, only you can make that decision. Gentoo is a highly technical distribution because it does not make many (if any) decisions for you. Without trying to sound mean, if you do not want to make these decisions, Gentoo is probably not the distribution for you. I think talking about Gentoo being highly customizable is really not a good description, I prefer to talk about Gentoo being an easier and more streamline way to build Linux from "scratch." So, if you are not someone that is interested in the Linux From Scratch distribution, Gentoo is not probably for you. However, because of USE Flags and Portage, Gentoo is great for people that want a Linux From Scratch distribution without some of the extra install work and with easier management. #2 Part of the problem with Gentoo documentation is that the gentoo-wiki.com website was lost due to technical issues. While this site is not an official Gentoo site, I always thought it provided the most detailed instructions and help with working a Gentoo system. The owner has rebooted the site, but it does not have a tenth of the information that it used to have, yet. All of the old info can still be found in Google's caches, but it is not very search-able, so you have to have already known about the site and the information it contained in order to find it. Of course, with all that information no longer being updated in Google's cache, it is starting to get outdated. #3 There used to be just such a thing, it was the Gentoo Monthly News Letter. The problem was (is), there was not enough people to volunteer to help out with the newsletter to keep it going. The archives of the newsletter are on the gentoo.org site, on the left column near the top. Hopefully there will be some new volunteers in the future to get the newsletter going again. #1) Hardware

Here is the problem, with Gentoo, you decide what hardware subsystems you want to use. Sound is a perfect example. Do you want OSS or ALSA? Gentoo should not and can not make this decision for you, but without this decision being made, you will not have sound support. Same thing goes for graphics. Do you want X with DRM drivers, binary drivers, or framebuffer drivers? Again, only you can make that decision.

Gentoo is a highly technical distribution because it does not make many (if any) decisions for you. Without trying to sound mean, if you do not want to make these decisions, Gentoo is probably not the distribution for you. I think talking about Gentoo being highly customizable is really not a good description, I prefer to talk about Gentoo being an easier and more streamline way to build Linux from “scratch.” So, if you are not someone that is interested in the Linux From Scratch distribution, Gentoo is not probably for you. However, because of USE Flags and Portage, Gentoo is great for people that want a Linux From Scratch distribution without some of the extra install work and with easier management.

#2
Part of the problem with Gentoo documentation is that the gentoo-wiki.com website was lost due to technical issues. While this site is not an official Gentoo site, I always thought it provided the most detailed instructions and help with working a Gentoo system. The owner has rebooted the site, but it does not have a tenth of the information that it used to have, yet. All of the old info can still be found in Google’s caches, but it is not very search-able, so you have to have already known about the site and the information it contained in order to find it. Of course, with all that information no longer being updated in Google’s cache, it is starting to get outdated.

#3
There used to be just such a thing, it was the Gentoo Monthly News Letter. The problem was (is), there was not enough people to volunteer to help out with the newsletter to keep it going. The archives of the newsletter are on the gentoo.org site, on the left column near the top. Hopefully there will be some new volunteers in the future to get the newsletter going again.

]]> By: hari http://thinkmoult.com/2009/10/10/the-problem-with-gentoo/comment-page-1/#comment-1072 hari Mon, 12 Oct 2009 14:12:20 +0000 http://thinkmoult.com/2009/10/10/the-problem-with-gentoo/#comment-1072 Hi Dion, the thing is that most distributions produce good quality binaries at little cost to the end-users performance especially considering modern hardware. So I don't really see what Gentoo would offer with a binary-package system that Debian and Debian based systems don't. I think the biggest USP of Gentoo is for users who ALWAYS require specialized compile-time options and who want to integrate such a build system seamlessly into package management. It's a very niche distribution and that is both its problem and its disadvantage. Merely compiling software without changing any flags doesn't offer any advantages to a pre-built binary. Hi Dion, the thing is that most distributions produce good quality binaries at little cost to the end-users performance especially considering modern hardware. So I don’t really see what Gentoo would offer with a binary-package system that Debian and Debian based systems don’t.

I think the biggest USP of Gentoo is for users who ALWAYS require specialized compile-time options and who want to integrate such a build system seamlessly into package management. It’s a very niche distribution and that is both its problem and its disadvantage. Merely compiling software without changing any flags doesn’t offer any advantages to a pre-built binary.

]]> By: Dion Moult http://thinkmoult.com/2009/10/10/the-problem-with-gentoo/comment-page-1/#comment-1069 Dion Moult Mon, 12 Oct 2009 05:33:58 +0000 http://thinkmoult.com/2009/10/10/the-problem-with-gentoo/#comment-1069 hari, i've been thinking about that for some time and I ealy hope that gentoo decides to have both binary and souce options for all packages, not just some like ff and oo. im quite sure it'll be quite easy to set up, it just needs more people to be interested in the option. Who do I talk to? hari, i’ve been thinking about that for some time and I ealy hope that gentoo decides to have both binary and souce options for all packages, not just some like ff and oo.

im quite sure it’ll be quite easy to set up, it just needs more people to be interested in the option. Who do I talk to?

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