Dion Moult Seriously who ever reads this description.

The problem with Gentoo

On 10 October 2009 with 16 comments

Gentoo is a relatively technical Linux distribution. It was also the first distro (though I did play with PuppyLinux before) that I used. Compared to most geeks I am rather illiterate. My technical background lies in the internet and as a result I treat the desktop world much like an average joe.

Before we all assume that therefore I’m not the target market, I’d like to say that I see Gentoo as a distribution that should allow me to easily use my computer whilst keeping configuration as flexible as possible. Of course with customisation we often get a tradeoff in usability, but nevertheless there are a couple areas where this tradeoff shouldn’t occur:

1) Hardware

Things like sound, internet, webcam, wireless, and suspend/hibernate should work out of the box. Tweak it later if you want, but it should work first. Please don’t just say it’s the kernel developers problem.

2) Updated documentation

Gentoo being a rolling release I find that howtos and online content get out of date, fast. Third party writers should have responsibility over their own work, but most importantly a centralised resource must be created. I propose that a quality team be notified automatically at regular intervals for each page to check that the data is still valid.

3) better communication between developers and users.

By this I am suggesting that at regular intervals an average-joe understandable summary be written about what has progressed. Lists of new ebuilds and eliminated bugs are good, but we need more qualitative than quantitative information. This not only helps joe keep up to date, but helps foster the Gentoo community.

I hope I put my points forward as constructively as possible. If it turns out that I’m actually completely ignorant of an existing solution, perhaps we should ask ourselves “why is he ignorant?”

No related posts.


16 Comments

Steve Dibb says: (9 October 2009)

#1 I have no idea what you’re talking about … too vague, sorry. :) #2 I agree is really important, and it can be hard to devote manpower to. Not impossible, but it’s a really important goal.

#3 is the one I wanted to talk about. It is *extremely* difficult to achieve that. No amount of hand-waving and wishing will accomplish it. It is a *major* undertaking to connect users and developers effectively. I know, because I’ve been trying to do that ever since I became a staffer/dev 3.5 years ago.

There is no real magic wand, no simple solution. I agree that we need more quality work in this area, but I actually think that having a bit more quantative projects will help realize that goal. I won’t go in details, but I have some stuff that should hopefully help with that soon.

The problem with Gentoo: my reactions | The Linux Experiment says: (10 October 2009)

[...] of the articles Tyler passed me this morning was a brief post on three problems with Gentoo by Dion Moult. There are a few things he’s mentioned that I definitely agree with. Having [...]

Dion Moult says: (10 October 2009)

Steve,
Sorry I didn’t write #1 as clearly as I should have. The pingback reply just above this comment understood it though.

and yes, 3 is very difficult, in any project. The difference I find with gentoo is that I don’t notice any attempt whatsoever, to put it bluntly.

Steve Dibb says: (10 October 2009)

Dion, planet larry is a perfect example of an attempt to bridge communication.

Dion Moult says: (10 October 2009)

sorry, that was terribly ignorant of me… I’ll have a think again about exactly where I feel this communication hole is.

hari says: (12 October 2009)

Forget everything else. The biggest problem with Gentoo is the compile times. Add that to downloading source updates over a slow connection and you can waste days of useful CPU cycles in doing what other distributions achieve in a few minutes and without too many benefits either.

Dion Moult says: (12 October 2009)

hari, i’ve been thinking about that for some time and I ealy hope that gentoo decides to have both binary and souce options for all packages, not just some like ff and oo.

im quite sure it’ll be quite easy to set up, it just needs more people to be interested in the option. Who do I talk to?

hari says: (12 October 2009)

Hi Dion, the thing is that most distributions produce good quality binaries at little cost to the end-users performance especially considering modern hardware. So I don’t really see what Gentoo would offer with a binary-package system that Debian and Debian based systems don’t.

I think the biggest USP of Gentoo is for users who ALWAYS require specialized compile-time options and who want to integrate such a build system seamlessly into package management. It’s a very niche distribution and that is both its problem and its disadvantage. Merely compiling software without changing any flags doesn’t offer any advantages to a pre-built binary.

George P. Burdell says: (13 October 2009)

#1) Hardware

Here is the problem, with Gentoo, you decide what hardware subsystems you want to use. Sound is a perfect example. Do you want OSS or ALSA? Gentoo should not and can not make this decision for you, but without this decision being made, you will not have sound support. Same thing goes for graphics. Do you want X with DRM drivers, binary drivers, or framebuffer drivers? Again, only you can make that decision.

Gentoo is a highly technical distribution because it does not make many (if any) decisions for you. Without trying to sound mean, if you do not want to make these decisions, Gentoo is probably not the distribution for you. I think talking about Gentoo being highly customizable is really not a good description, I prefer to talk about Gentoo being an easier and more streamline way to build Linux from “scratch.” So, if you are not someone that is interested in the Linux From Scratch distribution, Gentoo is not probably for you. However, because of USE Flags and Portage, Gentoo is great for people that want a Linux From Scratch distribution without some of the extra install work and with easier management.

#2
Part of the problem with Gentoo documentation is that the gentoo-wiki.com website was lost due to technical issues. While this site is not an official Gentoo site, I always thought it provided the most detailed instructions and help with working a Gentoo system. The owner has rebooted the site, but it does not have a tenth of the information that it used to have, yet. All of the old info can still be found in Google’s caches, but it is not very search-able, so you have to have already known about the site and the information it contained in order to find it. Of course, with all that information no longer being updated in Google’s cache, it is starting to get outdated.

#3
There used to be just such a thing, it was the Gentoo Monthly News Letter. The problem was (is), there was not enough people to volunteer to help out with the newsletter to keep it going. The archives of the newsletter are on the gentoo.org site, on the left column near the top. Hopefully there will be some new volunteers in the future to get the newsletter going again.

Dion Moult says: (13 October 2009)

it’s quite interesting you see gentoo as simply an easier linux from scratch. I have not been around gentoo for as long as most of the community and if presented like that, I definitely see your point. however when I first discovered gentoo that was not how I perceived it.

I agree on graphics and sound but what about internet, wifi, power management and webcams?

perhaps asking gentoo to try and appeal to both these markets is simply out of gentoos agenda, but if it is, I think it should be considered.

out of curiousity, what are sabayon’s aims?

Jeremy Olexa says: (14 October 2009)

Dion,
In reply to your comment about binary packages. (Comment #7 including the pingback). You apparently haven’t seen all the binpkgs that are provided here: http://tinderbox.dev.gentoo.org/default-linux/ portage is a great binary package manager too. One of my systems can only install binary packages that I build for it on a faster computer. I could just as easily set my PORTAGE_BINHOST on that computer to use tinderbox.dev.g.o ;)

Dion Moult says: (14 October 2009)

awesome! I’ll check it out when I get back

Jonathan Dahan says: (15 October 2009)

If there is official binary package support and decent enough sets, an out of the box solution is achievable, which would address problem #1. I think this is what Sabayon tried to do, and if popularity has any validity, then you should probably try it out, because a lot of people like it. Personally I do not like how lxnay acts (or thinks), but it does address #1, the long compile times, and a bit of #3. As far as documentation goes, metadata such as ‘UPSTREAM_{CHANGELOG,DOCUMENTATION}’ as seen in exheres is incredibly useful and easy to add.

Dion Moult says: (21 October 2009)

Well, I’ve tried using tinderbox as my binhost and even though it still has far to go (many missing packages, and I would’ve expected that it use more useflags) I think it has a lot of potential. You are right, portage can also make a great binary package manager!

Looking at the Gentoo philosophy (http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/philosophy.xml) I still think #1 is justified – give users flexibility, choice and freedom yes, but if their choice is to get things working asap, let it be.

Jacob Godserv says: (22 October 2009)

If you want to get really specific, Gentoo is not a distribution. It’s a “meta-distribution”.

Gentoo is just a big toolbox, and it’s up to you to build something with it. They might even give you a pre-built frame, but you still need to fill it out with your own essential services and software.

It’s up to you to make it work. If it doesn’t work, then you can’t turn around and blame Gentoo unless it’s something to do with a tool in Gentoo’s toolbox (portage, openrc, and so on).

This is why Gentoo is so awesome in terms of contributing back to the community: we, for the most part, skip that whole extra layer of bureaucracy that Ubuntu Linux and others have and communicate directly with developers about bug-fixes and other things we want fixed, because all the code comes directly from the developers themselves!

Dion Moult says: (23 October 2009)

I agree with your perspective fully – I just think that offering such support, for example for hardware only should be an option people can choose as part of this “pre-built” frame. That’s the point I was making with #1.

#2 is mainly looking for an official and centralised resource that is regularly maintained – I realise Gentoo-Wiki has suffered a huge loss, but I also see that some howtos are directly on Gentoo’s page whereas some on the Wiki, some on the forums and of course some on blog posts. I hope Gentoo-wiki is built up again to become what it was – but perhaps maintenance could be improved? What I’ve always thought would be the solution is that a quality team be put together and pinged every time a page got a month old without any updates. Then the team could quickly check to see if it was still relevant and up to date, make necessary changes, and so on.

#3 I am starting to doubt my own words now :D

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Dion Moult

Born in 1992 (do the math), Male, and floating around the GMT+8 timezone. I do graphic design, some 3D work, and I'm currently working on a "soon" to be released 3D animated movie. I do some programming here and there and have become fluent in XHTML, CSS, PHP and MySQL. Web development is my main area of computer expertise but I always have some weird and fantastic projects being juggled around my schedule. I like the concept of open-source and run Gentoo Linux. I play the piano and compose music. I hate this blog design but I'm never happy with any design. I am currently a student and working part time as a webdeveloper.

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